July is Disability Pride Month, and to celebrate this important month, we spoke to the incredible Kelly Gordon (Co-Founder & CEO) and Emma Gardner (Co-Founder & COO) of With Not For, a pioneering talent and content agency that exclusively represents Disabled creatives.
In this special ‘In The Spotlight’, Emma and Kelly share their thoughts on what inclusion looks like for disabled and neurodiverse talent, as well as celebrating the achievements of the community within the Creative Industries and beyond! Find out what they had to say 👇
Give us a snapshot of With Not For – your work, what you do, why you do it
Kelly: With Not For is a disability founded talent and production agency that exclusively represents Disabled creatives and we are on a mission to bring more Disabled talent into creative workplaces.
We do this by supporting agencies, brands and partners looking to include and represent disability by working... WITH and NOT FOR Disabled people. That comes in the form of providing talent across creative, production and on-screen roles, delivering training and by creating products for anyone that wants to support and learn from Disabled talent.
What does diversity, equity and inclusion look like for you in the Creative Industries?
Emma: When it comes to the inclusion of Disabled people it still looks well below par. That’s not to say that we aren’t seeing more disability representation in the industry or in ads and on-screen because we are. It’s a lot better than it used to be, but we know that there’s still a lot to learn with and from Disabled people to ensure that the creative places we work actually understand disability and how to include Disabled employees naturally and authentically.
This is essentially where we got our name from. It's easy to spot when Disabled people haven’t been involved in the making of an ad or a campaign because the language and portrayal of the Disabled cast is usually off or playing into tropes. If the lived experience of Disabled people and the Disabled community isn't a huge part of the process the work may cause harm, however unintentional that may be.
Kelly: It is important to challenge individual perception, when it comes to advertising and representation. The perception of what Disabled people can be, and do, along with working in collaboration to tell the stories of Disabled people with real voices and experiences. A lot of brands don't understand that there is no need to create fictional stories and write a narrative for stories containing Disabled people as there are so many stories still untold and we hope that by doing the work that we do we can start platforming some more of those stories, and voices.
Has there been a particular project that you have worked on at With Not For that you are particularly proud of?
Kelly: We are proud of so much of the work that we’ve been doing in the past couple of years but perhaps the most recent campaign we worked on with independent consultant and winner of Creative Equal’s Disabled Creatives program 2023 - Britt Sarony, Guinness and their agency Verve Live is our most memorable.
We were brought on board to deliver the rollout of stadium wide training at both Murrayfield in Scotland and Twickenham in London, as well as creative consulting on ideas, conducting research groups with Disabled fans and hiring and managing x10 Access Coordinators to trial supporting fans with less apparent disabilities at two Six Nations matches at Twickenham. It was an absolute pleasure to work with everyone on this project and the impact and engagement was palpable. Plus we got to take the team pitchside at the end of their last shift to watch Rag n Bone Man perform and watch the match, it still feels quite surreal!
What advice would you give to any Disabled talent aspiring to join the Creative Industries?
Emma: To established and emerging talent, we say - we want to work with you! Let’s chat and collaborate and start influencing the industry. We have built such a diverse and exciting directory of talent that we are always looking to platform and grow. We don’t demand exclusivity from our talent as we believe in being open and flexible and can work with anyone whether they have existing representation or would just like to chat through ideas with us.
Kelly: To anyone starting out we would say, don't let inaccessible environments and outdated attitudes deter you. Equally, don't underestimate your value and your own unique perspective. Know that the work you are doing is powerful and important and most importantly, don't work for free! There are great clients and projects out there and things are changing.
Is there a person who has been particularly influential or inspirational to you? How so?
Emma: My friend and Chief Radical Officer of ThisAbility, Sulaiman R. Khan has been someone that has impacted my thinking, perceptions, values and life in such a positive and evolutionary way since the day I met him. It’s a hard question. But yes, Sulaiman. Or Bruce Springsteen. But probably Sulaiman.
Kelly: Super cliché to say but I actually think I would say my Dad, Colin Gordon and of course my mom, growing up Disabled wasn’t the most easy journey to navigate but they filled me with this ridiculous confidence and belief in myself that meant that I was able to fight my corner against governors and the education system at 10 and then hold my own in the boardroom in my 20’s. I am so proud of the person I have become and the journey that I have been on because of them.
Are there any brands at the moment you hugely admire for their DE&I work, and why?
Emma: At the beginning of this year we began working with one of our newest partners VCCP on a project that will take us into early next year and we have genuinely been blown away by the openness and commitment of the teams we are working with to create something fresh and authentic. The project has the Disabled community at the heart of it and are so excited to be working as an extended part of their team on this campaign. When clients and partners are really engaged and are brave enough to ask, listen and implement guidance, brilliant things can happen which is wonderful to be a part of.
What is your dream for the future of the industries?
Kelly: Ultimately, that companies like ours would become common place, but equally don't need to exist! We would love for the industry to include Disabled people as standard, without the need for box ticking exercises. Instead, we would love the industry to challenge itself to bring in new perspectives, tell new stories and introduce new narratives into the way we all live. I truly believe that only then can we be fully inclusive, but for now diverse perspectives aren't portrayed due to the industry operating in a certain way.
Everything from the lack of inclusion in-house, inaccessible processes and current on-screen representation is habitual, in that not much is changing and it’s easy to keep repeating how it’s always been done. This leads to clients and brands telling or portraying the same story A LOT in slightly different voices...we believe it’s time to change that.
Can you recommend any industry-specific forums, groups, or associations that disabled professionals should join?
Here are some great spaces, resources and places to check out:
With Not For (of course!)
If you’d like to find out more or get involved with, With Not For, then head over to their website for more information - and you can find out more about our partnership, committed to improving representation, driving greater inclusion and accessibility and providing more opportunities for disabled people within the Creative Industries.
